{"id":368,"date":"2021-01-21T15:59:17","date_gmt":"2021-01-21T15:59:17","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.dreams.co.uk\/sleep-matters-club\/?post_type=podcast&#038;p=368"},"modified":"2025-01-30T13:04:38","modified_gmt":"2025-01-30T13:04:38","slug":"is-your-daily-routine-harming-your-sleep","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/www.dreams.co.uk\/sleep-matters-club\/podcast\/is-your-daily-routine-harming-your-sleep","title":{"rendered":"Is Your Daily Routine Harming Your Sleep?"},"content":{"rendered":"<p class=\"lead\">We often talk about having a good sleep routine when it comes to children and babies. But there\u2019s no reason why this shouldn\u2019t translate into adulthood. As we move through different stages in our lives, so do our circadian rhythms which is why our sleep gets lighter and shorter as we get older. But what about sleep routines? And how do we ensure our life doesn\u2019t affect our sleep negatively?<\/p>\n<p>In this episode of the Sleep Matters Audio Series from Dreams, sleep expert Dr Pixie McKenna and guest panel discuss how important your daily routine is and how it can affect your sleep. Issy Panayis, an early morning presenter on Radio X talks about her experience of sleep patterns and routines and Professor Kevin Morgan, a Professor of Psychology and Director of the Clinical Sleep Research Unit at Loughborough University explains the science behind our sleep and sleep cycles.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h2>Watch on YouTube<\/h2>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Is your routine harming your sleep? | Episode 1 | Sleep Matters from Dreams podcast\" width=\"750\" height=\"422\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/YxxqfLM2Gj4?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h2>What\u2019s covered in this sleep routine episode?<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li>Circadian rhythms \u2013 what they are and how they differ from person to person<\/li>\n<li>The amount of sleep we should get<\/li>\n<li>How sleep routines need to fit into an individual\u2019s life<\/li>\n<li>Napping<\/li>\n<li>How daily routines affect your sleep<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Transcript of this episode<\/h2>\n\n\t<div class=\"box box-grey box-transcript \" style=\"max-height: 600px;\">\n\t\t\n<p><strong>Dr Pixie McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:00:07] Hello everybody and welcome to the Sleep Matters podcast from dreams. Everything you need to know about how to get a great night\u2019s sleep and why it matters so much. I\u2019m Dr. Pixie McKenna. And in this episode, we\u2019re chatting about how important a set routine is for getting a good night\u2019s sleep. So today I\u2019m joined by Issy Panayis and Issy is actually an early morning presenter on Radio X. Welcome Issy, I hope we\u2019re not keeping you up.<strong>Issy Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:00:33] No, I\u2019ve got enough sleep today, I\u2019m all right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr Pixie McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:00:36] So while it\u2019s dark outside the studio she\u2019s chatting to the nation literally in the middle of the night. And we also have Professor Kevin Morgan. Welcome, Kevin. And Kevin is a Professor of psychology and he\u2019s the Director of the Clinical Sleep Research Unit at Loughborough University. So you definitely Kevin must have all the answers, please.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:00:58] Hi Pixie. I have some answers.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr Pixie McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:00] Did you have a good night\u2019s sleep last night?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:01] I\u2019m a complete phony. I sleep very well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr Pixie McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:03] Do you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:04] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:04] Good good. What about you Issy? Well, I don\u2019t even know what your night is?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:09] And neither do I most of the time it can be a mixed bag depending on what I\u2019ve been up to.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:12] What time are you getting up to go to work at?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:16] I have a 02:25 alarm which goes off every day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:20] 02:25.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:21] Yeah In the morning.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:22] That\u2019s just crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:23] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:24] Most people are coming in from a night out at 02:25. So what\u2019s your routine? Because that just seems to have everything turned on its head.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:01:34] I have a very solid routine I think when you wake up at that time every day, which is a very unusual time to wake up, you have to have things in order and kind of eliminate certain things to be able to function to the best of your ability. Obviously, I have to go and do the show and there are people who work far harder hours at far harder jobs than I do. And I kind of owe it to them to have the best possible routine and the best night\u2019s sleep so that I can do what I need to do for them and keep them going through the morning. So, I can go to bed anywhere between 18:00 in the evening and about midnight. Obviously, in my line of work being in broadcast, being a music DJ, I have to go to quite a lot of gigs and that kind of things so you can\u2019t always guarantee you\u2019re going to have a lot of sleep. Sometimes it can be a couple of hours here and there. But yeah my alarm goes off at 02:25 and then I get a cab into work. I\u2019m at work just after 03:00 and then the show finishes at 06:30 and I go back to bed for a few hours after that and usually wake up about midday.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:02:31] Do you sleep in your clothes because that\u2019s what I\u2019d be doing!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:02:34] I do wear quite a big jumper most of the time so I can just get up make breakfast and not even think about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:02:40] How important Kevin, I mean with your experience, how important is routine in having a day? I mean Issy sounds like she\u2019s got a routine even though it\u2019s a bit wonky because she\u2019s getting up in the middle of the night, you know her day is our night. But how important is a routine in terms of getting a good night\u2019s sleep?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:02:56] Issy\u2019s routine sounds like a routine, in as much as it\u2019s rythmical and regular. Routines are important for sleep because sleep is a critical phase in that schedule of activities we call a 24-hour circadian rhythm. And what\u2019s important about routines is they provide us with signals, with cues, and these cues, if they operate well, they kind of tell us to down regulate, to dearrouse, to go to bed go to sleep and then they encourage us to wake up at a regular time and it\u2019s regularity of the routines that\u2019s important. The phrase we used to define these is a German word called zeitgeber but these are the time give us the timekeepers of our circadian rhythm if you maintain a regular circadian schedule it protects those other circadian functions like sleep, like appetite, like your energy levels during the day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:03:54] But isn\u2019t there a problem I guess for Issy, because Issy has a job five days a week that requires her to be up when everyone else is asleep, and then she\u2019s got a life I\u2019m presuming at the weekend?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:04:04] That\u2019s a bold assumption!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:04:05] This is where what we call individual differences kicks in not everybody is the same one size of circadian rhythm doesn\u2019t fit everybody. Some people have naturally flexible and robust circadian rhythms, and they select for some kinds of jobs. I mean famously postal delivery workers are very early morning people but everybody can\u2019t be a postal delivery worker and at times of full employment, these people are people who feel most comfortable that they kick off very early in the morning. Some people would die doing that job, okay. So we tend to, in adulthood select for those schedules and demands that best suit our endogenous circadian rhythms.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:04:53] So is it possible though to train yourself to become a morning or evening person?..<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:04:57] Well up to a point, yes. We talk about morning people and evening people\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:05:03] Is that just a made up thing<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:06] It\u2019s a pudding that\u2019s very easy to over egg. Most people are neither one thing nor the other. About 20 percent of the population are quite categorically morning people and some people are quite categorically evening people and these people tend to have rather fixed circadian rhythms\u2026 Some people get up very early in the morning and they hit the ground running and other people always feel uncomfortable <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dreams.co.uk\/sleep-matters-club\/how-to-get-out-of-bed-in-the-morning-when-you-dont-want-to\">getting out of bed<\/a> before 8:00 in the morning. The rest of us were kind of moving around in the middle and were slightly more flexible if the job demands us to delay or sleep phase we can generally do that, not excessively but within limits. So most of us show flexibility, adaptability and only a minority will say they have an absolute categorical preference for working into the night or working early in the morning.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:05:58] I mean how is your weekend for example? Do you sort of wake up Saturday morning or are you the last one to leave the nightclub on Friday night?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:06:08] I guess it depends on what your plans are and what you\u2019re doing but it can be quite tricky to work out because when your bodies say used to five days a week waking up at one time, it\u2019s sometimes I don\u2019t sleep the whole night through, my body naturally wakes up at 4 o\u2019clock in the morning thinking right we\u2019ve gotta get out we\u2019ve got a go and do things, and then it\u2019s my job to kind of turn my brain back off and be like right now we\u2019re going back to sleep now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:06:28] Can you go back to sleep, do you find you go back sleep?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:06:32] If wake up I might be up for a couple of hours, but a lot of the time I am sleeping through the night. I think because my sleep is split and I\u2019m used to going to bed in the evening I can still get a full night\u2019s sleep a lot of the time, at the weekend.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:06:47] So actually maybe some of us are hardwired to be night owls?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:06:53] Yeah it\u2019s certainly the case that some of us are much more adapted to working night shifts, and as I said earlier if all other things being equal if we\u2019re allowed to choose the jobs we do those people who choose to do almost permanent night work are rather special people and they can survive. Some people couldn\u2019t countenance working any night shifts let alone permanent night shifts. So there is a degree of selectivity here but even that isn\u2019t constant because what will then happen is natural human ageing related processes will kick in and they tend to weaken this robustness in our circadian rhythm. So what holds in your younger years doesn\u2019t necessarily hold across your lifespan.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:07:38] And is it true that your circadian rhythms feel like your natural internal alarm clock I guess, that\u2019s different isn\u2019t it when you\u2019re a teenager and when you\u2019re an adult, and obviously, as you get older?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:07:50] If you\u2019ve ever tried to get an adolescent out of bed in morning Pixie, yeah absolutely I mean it changes dramatically.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:07:56] So why is that? Why do they want to sleep all the time?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:07:59] There are several things going on here. One of them is that maturation, growing up is a process that starts in infancy where what we call the polyphasic organisation of sleep these little cycles of waking, sleeping, eating, bawling, waking, sleeping, eating, yeah you remember that, they tend to decline and the more natural adult biphasic rhythm kicks in but the biphasic rhythm is dependent upon things like hormone levels, melatonin levels, there\u2019s a very important process in the morning called the cortisol awakening response. This is when cortisol levels increase substantially about 20 30 minutes after we wake up and in part, they\u2019re driven by our circadian rhythms, we know that because if you just get people to nap and wake them up they don\u2019t show this arousal response so all other things being equal. There\u2019s a lot of physiology keeping our circadian rhythms rhythmical. Now many of these things change as we get older and not just as we get old but as we get older 20 to 30, 30 to 40. So characteristically as you move through early, middle, late adulthood your sleep will invariably become shorter, lighter and more fragmented. It\u2019s normal. It\u2019s what happens. And as you move towards later life and if opportunities arise sometimes biphasic sleep returns, sorry <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dreams.co.uk\/sleep-matters-club\/4-alternative-sleeping-cycles-infographic\">polyphasic sleep<\/a> returns, so <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dreams.co.uk\/sleep-matters-club\/the-ultimate-guide-to-daytime-napping\">napping<\/a> in the afternoon becomes quite acceptable, quite satisfying maybe, for some of my students napping in the afternoon is quote acceptable and satisfactory. But the question you asked me was why these things change as we get older, they change because everything else changes. And what also changes is the demands upon us. So work routines provide excellent zeitgebers, excellent timekeepers that keep our schedules firing off, but take those away in say post-retirement, and you have to have more flexibility to deploy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:10:14] So, therefore, routine is the key thing. And you sound like Issy you\u2019ve got a routine.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:10:21] Yes it\u2019s fairly solid.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:10:23] Is it really like I\u2019m out of bed I\u2019m going to do this I\u2019m going to do that and you\u2019ve got a defined amount of time just to do it and get into work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:10:31] Yes. It\u2019s not like the kind of job you could just stroll in half an hour late or oversleep. You have to be there at that time otherwise you get in big trouble and I wouldn\u2019t have a job for very much longer. So yes routine is massively important at getting out of bed as quickly as you can, getting out of the house and being at work for 03:00 is something that I just have to do every day without question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:10:51] And did it take you a while to get into that, how long you been doing the job?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:10:54] Just over two years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:10:56] How long does it take you to get into the groove?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:10:57] Quite a while. I think a lot of people say if you\u2019re not sure if you ever really get used to that routine because it\u2019s not natural to wake up in the middle of the night but you have to do everything you possibly can to make it as natural for yourself as you can. I think as you go on and on what I\u2019ve realized over those two years is taking away external factors which can disturb your sleep so I use earplugs, obviously if you\u2019ve got neighbours, flatmates, building works when you\u2019re doing shift work in the middle of the day is something that wakes me up a lot. So earplugs are a staple part of what I do in both blocks of my sleep. I have blackout blinds and I have a light up alarm which is game changing if you do shift work, get a light up a lamp because it\u2019s brilliant, It very gently wakes you up half an hour before and by that point you\u2019re feeling quite awake and you haven\u2019t even realized, there\u2019s no work on your part.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:11:49] What do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:11:50] I think Issy\u2019s making some immensely valuable points and I come back to this. We\u2019ve been emphasising how different Issy\u2019s routines are from say a normal day at work or whatever, but there\u2019s something they have in common, It\u2019s the discipline that looks after your sleep. Issy\u2019s got be firing on all four if she\u2019s sitting in front of a microphone earning a living. Okay. You can\u2019t fade, you\u2019ve got to be on it. You could be processing information all the time. You\u2019ve got to look after your level of arousal and that means looking after you asleep. And what Issy\u2019s just been describing is very disciplined if you like an intelligent way of managing sleep under adverse circumstances. But she\u2019s learned this is how it works. These are the things I\u2019ve got to do in order for my sleep to function for me, when I need it now that\u2019s a message that applies to all of us whenever we\u2019re working, most of us in adulthood would know what we\u2019ve got to do in order to preserve and look after our sleep and that\u2019s when our schedules and routines are very important. We know what our natural bedtime is, we know the things we usually do before bedtime, we know the usual order of things that signal to our body time to start down-regulating, we\u2019re heading towards bed. Okay. Don\u2019t get excited. No. Start doing things that are quieter. And we also know that you know come a time in the morning when we really ought to get up and start moving around. Maintaining a discipline around this looks after our sleep. And if you want an example of where this discipline falls over just look at any family during the school holidays with school-age kids and what happens if they are school age kids in their teenage years they don\u2019t have a job, they will phase advance, Bit by bit, the kids will start going to bed later and later and getting up later and later.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:13:36] And they become feral!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:13:37] And they become feral, well they will attract opprobrium and they will be labelled lazy and all these things and all they\u2019re really doing is they\u2019re moving their circadian rhythm bit by bit forward into the night, to a point where they actually can\u2019t get up any earlier. Now one of the really important rhythms underneath our circadian rhythm is our temperature rhythm. Temperature starts to fall off towards bedtime and it reaches its lowest point maybe between 2 and 4 in the morning after which we start getting warmer just like lizards. So we operate at our peak when our bodies are nice and warm okay. And what happens with kids during school holidays is that their whole circadian rhythm moves such that if you try to get them up first thing in the morning they think it was the middle of the night. They\u2019d wonder what was going on here, they\u2019d be like the walking dead. So what can you do? Well you have to live with it and the wonderful thing about teenage kids is that they switch relatively quickly, you know when the school bell rings at they\u2019re back. But don\u2019t be surprised by this, this is what we would all do if those times givers, those zeitgebers were removed from us in the morning and we were allowed to slip forward in our schedules. Unemployed people do this. Some retired people do this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:14:58] Is there a set amount of time that we should sleep? You know we all kind of sleep seven or eight hours and then there are all these other people, you know famous people who\u2019ve only slept four hours and they\u2019ve changed the world.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:15:10] Here\u2019s a rule for life Pixie there is no one size fits all recommended amount of sleep that we should all aspire to. It just doesn\u2019t work like that and most adults just know that intuitively. If you want to know what the answer to the question how much sleep do I need is, it\u2019s not a number, It\u2019s an experience, Okay. The amount of sleep you need is the amount of sleep you require to allow you to wake up feeling reasonably refreshed, hit the day and meet its challenges and then feel a healthily sleepy towards the evening at what you identify as your normal bedtime. Okay now by and large that would be a correct amount of sleep. Now for some people, it might be six, seven hours for some people it might be eight, nine hours. Okay. About 45 percent of the population would sleep between seven and eight hours. But the people sleeping slightly more than that slightly less than that aren\u2019t abnormal people. That\u2019s just what they\u2019ve learned is adequate for them. But keep in mind what I said earlier that as we get older that amount will decline. We will sleep less as we become older.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:16:23] And what about the way Issy is doing it? So Issy just remind me, you\u2019re doing a little bit either side, you\u2019re like a sandwich, like a sleep sandwich in between work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:16:32] I like that. Yes so usually in blocks of around four hours I\u2019d say, it usually works out about eight, nine hours. It can depend if I need to catch up on a bit more sleep from the week if I\u2019ve had some busy nights beforehand but yeah usually around that time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:16:45] So what\u2019s that doing to her circadian rhythms?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:16:49] It\u2019s probably working well given that the work demands when they\u2019re occurring which is what 02:00 until 06:00 in the morning.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:16:55] Yes so waking up just before half 2:00 and then the show finishes just after half six.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:16:59] Wonderful in the summer. Yeah, it\u2019s probably adequate, if you want a good example of this. When Helen MacArthur was taking her yacht around the world she was sleeping in these two-hour cycles. You don\u2019t have a choice. You can\u2019t go to sleep or you\u2019ll wake up under a big boat. And by and large this works quite well quantums of two seem to work extremely well. You can identify a 90 minute cycle of complete cycle of sleep, that\u2019s the one that starts with light sleep, boots into <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dreams.co.uk\/sleep-matters-club\/deep-sleep\">deep sleep<\/a>, includes a rem period, a dreaming period asleep and then the cycle starts all over again, so our periods of time long enough to accommodate one or two complete sleep cycles, dreaming cycles this is healthy sleep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:17:54] What you were saying there about the blocks of sleep because we hear that a lot. I know you\u2019d say you shouldn\u2019t even be thinking of hours or any time limit, but that when we are thinking about sleep we should be trying to time ourselves into 90 minute cycles so that we wake up when we\u2019ve completed a cycle rather than in the middle of the cycle because otherwise we\u2019d be exhausted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:18:16] Okay I\u2019ll give you two examples of how you can use that one particular piece of sleep science to inform a sleep habit. Let\u2019s imagine you wanted to take a nap, Okay. And I work with athletes who, they do a lot of napping athletes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:18:33] Probably tired I\u2019d say.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan\u00a0<\/strong>[00:18:36] We\u2019ll come back to that probably- Possibly not. But anyway they do a lot of napping. And the idea of what\u2019s an optimum nap, what\u2019s the best thing. And if you want to talk about power naps, OK. I\u2019ll mention it now. There\u2019s no such thing as a power nap, OK a power nap is a terminology invented by young people to make their napping, their sleeping during the day seem more dynamic. So if you go around an old people\u2019s home in the afternoon you\u2019ll see a lot of people napping and somehow they\u2019re not allowed to be having powers nap. Only young people can have a power nap but they\u2019re doing exactly what young people do when they\u2019re sleeping in the libraries. Okay so they\u2019re just napping, daytime sleep is napping. The ideal daytime sleep could borrow from sleep science and you say well what you don\u2019t want to do is sleep so long that you descend so deeply into sleep that shaking off sleep will create a problem, we call it sleep inertia. When you wake up maybe after an hour\u2019s nap and you feel heavy. So what\u2019s an ideal nap. Maybe 30, 40 minutes. You\u2019ll wake up feeling refreshed you won\u2019t feel as if you\u2019re wearing a mantle of weight that you\u2019ve got to shake off and you will feel benefit, on the other hand, if you just put in a night shift, and let\u2019s imagine is if you didn\u2019t have access to your full four hours, let\u2019s imagine some family demand required your presence okay. And this often happens on the first off period at the end of shifts. People trim, you say well what would be the ideal sleep to have. Well not less than 90 minutes I\u2019d say two hours sleep, two hours sleep, you could probably function quite well for well into the day on two hours of compensatory sleep but not less. And this is just using what we know about sleep cycles and sleep science to inform, basically sleep management strategies.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:20:28] So it\u2019s give or take two hours? A couple of hours.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan\u00a0<\/strong>[00:20:32] If you want compensatory sleep, if you genuinely need sleep go for a couple of hours sleep. If you really need sleep go for a full night. If pressure demands that you need a compensatory sleep prior to meeting some demand during the day go for a couple of hours. Okay. But if you\u2019ve really only got a small pocket of time and you just want a nap, you just want to you recharge go for half an hour to 40 minutes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:21:04] No longer, as a junior doctor I was actually a big fan of the power nap, I countless times fell asleep on duty because I\u2019m one of those old people who did terribly long shifts for days and days and days you never knew when you were kind of going to finish. But we used to, if we had ten minutes before we knew the next patient was coming in we\u2019d just lie down and go to sleep and we convinced ourselves that that 10 minutes was gold and it would get us further through the night.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:21:37] It probably would, the interesting thing is that we don\u2019t have these junior doctors to work on in research anymore.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:21:43] It\u2019s probably a good thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:21:51] Junior hospital doctors used to be able to allow us to make the point that it wasn\u2019t just the accumulated sleep that delivered restoration, so you could monitor a junior doctors sleeping hours over 36 hours to say look they had eight hours sleep but they did have in 27 different packets and they feel wretched. So it made the point that it\u2019s not just accumulated added on time of sleep that really matters it\u2019s the continuity entity that delivers real restoration.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:22:24] Issy how do you find the seasons? That must affect you getting up in the really pitch black?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:34] Seasons are massively affecting on sleep, the winter night shifts are the hardest bit of the entire year and it\u2019s like Christmas at the moment because it starting to get light out, we\u2019ve just hit the spring at equinox and then the last couple of days I\u2019ve left work and it\u2019s been light. It\u2019s like Christmas for presenters, we all go round saying \u2018you see it\u2019s like outside the studios\u2019. That\u2019s massive because leaving work and feeling, I feel like feeling part of the waking world is really important. You can feel very cut off when you wake up it\u2019s dark you go to bed and it\u2019s dark and obviously, I think we\u2019ve all heard of seasonal affective disorder, that can massively come into play when all you see in your waking hours is darkness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna\u00a0<\/strong>[00:23:14] But is it a problem then when you leave work and it\u2019s bright and you feel like \u2018hello what will I do now?\u2019.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:23:20] It\u2019s great you feel very giddy but at the same time it takes adjusting to you have to really check those blinds are in place, because I think the signals of it being light tells your brain always we should still be out we should still be doing things. So in the last couple of days since that\u2019s happened I have had to adjust because my brain thinks right well we should be up at this point. It\u2019s all about training yourself to do what you need to do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:23:42] Yeah. Just kind of getting regimented into to it. So Kevin with the seasons\u2019 change, the dark, the light you know the extra hour, the hour taken away, how is that affecting us? Tell us the science behind it how that\u2019s affecting us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan\u00a0<\/strong>[00:23:58] I can tell you the epidemiology behind it what people actually do is they tend to go to bed slightly later they get up slightly earlier if you compare with the best example we took to compare a tropical country with northern Europe. Within the tropics very little happens throughout the year in terms of changes in sleep patterns, sleep durations stay the same bedtimes stay the same getting up times tend to stay the same, in Northern Europe and that would include us, our sleep patterns do change. We do tend to go to bed slightly later. We do tend to get slightly earlier. We also tend to drink more during the summer which actually has an impact as well, but we\u2019ll just park that for the time being.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:24:46] Drink more alcohol?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:24:47] What I\u2019m saying is that there are other things going on. I mean we don\u2019t, we\u2019re not living in a greenhouse. We\u2019re not plants, there\u2019s a lot of things going on in our lives that change winter to summer but we tend to eat differently, we drink differently, we exercise differently. But by and large and notwithstanding Seasonal Affective Disorder and other effective disorders that Issy has just mentioned, sleep patterns change but they change in a very manageable way. OK. Mood Changes are insidious, mood changes will invariably affect sleep it\u2019s very difficult to experience a mood change without it negatively impacting your sleep and the further north you go in Europe the higher the levels of seasonal affective disorder in the winter are, so that will carry with it all lots of risk factors for insomnia. But by and large throughout northern Europe insomnia\u2019s tend to peak during winter months and tend to be less expressed during summer months.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:25:53] OK so what are your top tips for for getting a good sleep routine.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:26:01] If you are going to manage your sleep and look after your sleep through your routines then you, first of all, have to kind of appraise the quality of your sleep and most adults know whether or not they\u2019ve got fragile or robust sleep and what I mean by that is that, if you\u2019ve ever taken a test, caught an aeroplane, met a family crisis you will know if your sleep wobbles or if it by and large fires for you okay. If you know you\u2019ve got wobbly sleep then you really are going to have to look after your sleep routines to make sure that you get the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dreams.co.uk\/sleep-matters-club\/ways-to-sleep-better-at-night\">quality of sleep<\/a> you need and that quality of sleep is preserved by those things you can adjust and you can adjust your routines, and most people will know what they\u2019ve got to do. Observing routines means just that, it means ritualizing certain activities, going to bed in roughly the same way on most nights, make sure your sleep preferences which we all have are in place. Sleep is a highly ritualised environment and if you think about it you know everything from the texture of our bedding to the height of our pillow to even the compass direction our bed is facing is important to some people, whether they\u2019re the bedding is heavy or light, whether the window is open or closed, all these things matter. Some people can\u2019t sleep without a light on, not many but some. So all of these things become our sleep preferences. Teddy, No Teddy this kind of stuff, having all of that stuff in place is important, making sure it\u2019s in place becomes important. Doing normal things in the normal way. I\u2019ll give you a good example of this- there\u2019s a relationship that many people assume between drinking milky stuff and getting a good night\u2019s sleep. Okay. Now the real story behind this is far more subtle but far more interesting. People who are accustomed to drinking half a pint of milk before they go to bed mixed with whatever, if that\u2019s their habit and that\u2019s what they believe helps their sleep, these people actually show signs of sleep disturbance if they\u2019re not allowed to do that. On the other hand, people who never do that if you give them half a pint of milk with something mixed into it and say this is a sleep aid, you can measure sleep disturbance in those individuals. What we\u2019re looking at here is routine. It\u2019s the routine that matters not the dietary addition of milk, can you imagine never having grown accustomed to drinking half a pint of milk before you go to bed and somebody saying this is going to be really good for you. I mean why would anybody believe that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:28:50] You\u2019ve ruined it for loads of people Kevin!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan\u00a0<\/strong>[00:28:53] It\u2019s routine, most people intuitively know what is and what isn\u2019t in their routine. If it\u2019s a drink, if it\u2019s a cup of tea fine, if it\u2019s not that\u2019s fine too. There are no rules here about what should be in the routine other than the routine should guarantee what we call dearousal, quieting, calming as you move towards bedtime and then if you really want to preserve your environment and you\u2019re beginning to feel that maybe sleep isn\u2019t always coming the way you want it to, try one one single injunction and that is just keep your bedroom for the things we do in bedroom sleeping and sex and that\u2019s it. Don\u2019t take food don\u2019t take the newspaper don\u2019t take just do what\u2019s appropriate in a bedroom. Okay but if you sleep very well and you have no problems with your sleep and you\u2019re waking up shining and you always go to bed to read the paper, fine. Does this make sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:29:59] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. I mean you\u2019ve got your obviously science, evidence-based hat on, speaking about sleep. Here we\u2019ve got Issy, she\u2019s living the dream, big up in the middle of the night and you\u2019re doing it completely you\u2019ve turned it all on its head. How do you do it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:30:19] I think is what we were saying before about eliminating those external factors. In my brain I know this is what I have to do this is my job I love doing my job, I love going to work is the best job, so that helps having something great to wake up to is always going to make you want to get out of bed in that sense. For me eliminating external factors, figuring out what\u2019s going to disturb your sleep, how you get the best night, be that having the best possible bedding for you be it cutting down on caffeine a lot of people will hate me for saying that but I allow myself to have one cup of coffee when I get to work at three and no more for the rest of the day because that really messes with my sleeping patterns. It\u2019s earplugs it\u2019s blinds, it\u2019s whatever works for you making sure that you know that that routine is gonna be in place for you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:31:03] So s<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:31:05] I don\u2019t think you need to be strict with it. I think what I do, yes there needs to be those things in place, I think I can get quite anxious if things aren\u2019t in the way they should be, so I lay my clothes up the night before so it\u2019s not something I have to think about or worry about when I\u2019m lying in bed. I know exactly what I\u2019m going to have for breakfast every day just to take away that choice, not to be too hard on myself or to be strict with myself but because I know that\u2019s going to make it easier for me and for my brain to function in the right way when I need to get up. I think when you do shift work and when you do the kind of job that I do it\u2019s a very different thing to waking up naturally and getting those solid eight hours in a row. I don\u2019t think other people need to be as hard on themselves.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:31:47] And could you see yourself doing this, I mean for a long period of time? You\u2019ve obviously done it for a couple of years. There must be people there who\u2019ve done it for years and years and years I\u2019m guessing. Loads of people do shift work for their entire life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:32:00] Yeah. Some people were really happy doing that, I think what we were saying about morning people and night people, there\u2019s someone at my station who\u2019s been doing the same overnight show for 20 years now and he\u2019s one of the most respected men in the industry. I don\u2019t think that specialist music show would work at any other time. So you know it all has its part to play in that sense.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:32:19] It\u2019s funny I never really thought about that, so you at 03:00 in the morning have to be exactly what you\u2019re like at 15:00.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:32:28] I would say even more so. Yes you have to be switched on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:32:31] You\u2019ve got to keep everyone else going.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:32:32] Yeah and it\u2019s just me in that studio, I am in control. The entire output of the radio station at that time is down to me. You\u2019ve got me on the ball.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:32:41] But you love it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:32:42] Yeah I do. It\u2019s a brilliant job.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:32:44] So we\u2019re going to get a bit of routine and we\u2019ve got to be strict on ourselves to get a good night\u2019s sleep, naps are OK but keep them to 40 minutes, if you need sleep rather than a quick nap we\u2019re looking at a couple of hours, but not longer during the day. Do think there\u2019s anything else, what would be your top take home?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:33:07] Okay. It\u2019s interesting because we\u2019re focusing on sleep and routines in relation to sleep. We\u2019re kind of making the assumption that the only routine that matters in relation to sleep are routines around sleep as if having a routine during the rest of the day really makes no difference, of course, it makes an immense difference. Your circadian rhythm is a 24-hour rhythm. So if you want to look after your routine this really makes you boring but it looks after your sleep. It means that your exercise routines are going to be routine, they\u2019re going to be rhythmical it means that your meal times are going to be rhythmical, if you eat haphazardly say sometimes I eat a large meal at 18:00 sometimes at 21:00. This is going to play havoc with sleep routines because it\u2019s simply going to confuse your body it\u2019s not going to know where it is in its phases. So, by and large, the routines aren\u2019t just sleep-related, although they\u2019re very important, they work throughout the 24 hours, like I say it doesn\u2019t make you interesting. I guess there\u2019s flexibility in the system. There\u2019s what we call plasticity in the system. You\u2019re allowed to have time out now and again, but by and large, if you want to look after your biorhythms you maintain regularity in your habits, end of.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:34:30] Regular as clockwork, and for you. Same thing really. I guess routine, routine.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Issy<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Panayis<\/strong>\u00a0[00:34:35] Regimented.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:34:36] Yeah good. Well, hopefully, we\u2019re all going to sleep well tonight. I hope so.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kevin<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Morgan<\/strong>\u00a0[00:34:40] Thanks very much Pixie.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:34:41] We picked up a few tips, thank you so much it\u2019s been really fascinating to sort of you know real life activity here and obviously the science brain behind it all.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>Pixie<\/strong>\u00a0<strong>McKenna<\/strong>\u00a0[00:34:52] That\u2019s all from this episode of sleep matters from dreams if you want to hear more. Go to dreams.co.uk, YouTube or any of your usual podcast places. And if you enjoy this podcast if you could\u00a0subscribe and leave us a review.<\/p>\n\t<\/div>\n\n\n<h3>Listen here<\/h3>\n<h5>Spotify<\/h5>\n<p><iframe title=\"Spotify Embed: 1: Is Your Routine Harming Your Sleep?\" style=\"border-radius: 12px\" width=\"100%\" height=\"152\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\" loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/7yEXxwyBHO1zUMKY0zLNDT?utm_source=oembed\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n","protected":false},"featured_media":20794,"template":"","class_list":["post-368","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.3 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Is Your Daily Routine Harming Your Sleep? - The Sleep Matters Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dreams.co.uk\/sleep-matters-club\/podcast\/is-your-daily-routine-harming-your-sleep\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_GB\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Is Your Daily Routine Harming Your Sleep? - The Sleep Matters Club\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"In this episode of the Sleep Matters Audio Series from Dreams, sleep expert Dr Pixie McKenna and guest panel discuss how important your daily routine is and how it can affect your sleep. 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